[developers] DELPH-IN Discourse (Q&A)

[Olga Zamaraeva]

Dear Stephan,

We discussed the issue with our UW admin Brandon Graves, and here are two
options that he suggests:

===
*Solution one:* Do nothing. As it is, the delph-in projects CNAME points to
delphinqa.ling.washington.edu, So if you visit discourse.delph-in.net, it
automatically redirects to our site. This of course lacks the "brand
recognition" that was mentioned in the previous email, but would still
function perfectly, since you could distribute the
discourse.delph-in.net address,
and people would simply be redirected to delphinqa.ling.washington.edu.

*Second option:* Reverse the configuration. We could make discourse.delph-in
.net the primary address. The catch to this is that the current SSL
certificates are created using delphinqa.ling.washington.edu as the
hostname, and are signed through UW's process. I can create a new
certificate request for discourse.delph-in.net but since I am not connected
as owner of the DNS entry UW, and I assume UW Is not the primary owner of
the delph-in.net DNS entry either they unfortunately will not sign the
certificate. Which would mean we would either need delph-in to provide a
method of getting a certificate signed, or we would need to self sign it.

Self signing/signing by a non-official signing party will provide the
required security/encryption on the site to ensure that login information
is secure, but it will not be recognized by peoples browsers, and will give
the "this site cannot be trusted" error page, forcing people to add an
exception to view the page...Which isn't a huge problem, but it definitely
can be off putting to people who don't implicitly trust the site.
===

I trust most people will agree that having to deal with the certificate is
too off-putting... So for now, it seems like it makse more sense to do the
"cheap" redirect? Given that the person who is for now primarily
maintaining the forum (me) is at UW...

Does this sound acceptable? If not, let's continue looking into options.

Thank you,
Olga

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:39 PM Olga Zamaraeva <olzama at uw.edu> wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> > for that to work transparently, i have created ‘discourse.delph-in.net’
> as an alias (CNAME) for the UW address and would suggest that you configure
> the server there to serve the forum under that address.  this way, we also
> strengthen brand recognition and leave open the possibility of moving the
> forum at some point, if need be, without having to change its address.
>  does that sound like a feasible approach?
>
> That would be great. I will ask our admin Brandon Graves (who had set up
> the forum in the first place) about it.
>
> Olga
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:17 PM Stephan Oepen <oe at ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>
>> dear all,
>>
>> i realize i know very little about how search engines decide to rank
>> their suggestions, but it appears google at least has indexed our mailing
>> lists (see below).  i now suspect folks might have had the impression that
>> DELPH-IN lists are not indexed because there will often be seemingly
>> ‘better’ matches suggested by a search engine, possibly because there are
>> comparatively few web links /to/ these pages.  on this view, the forum will
>> likely have a similar challenge regarding search engine visibility, and
>> distributing information over multiple platforms may arguably actually add
>> to that problem.
>>
>> —seeing as the ‘site:’ prefix is such an efficient way of making google
>> only return DELPH-IN matches, i think we should mention that technique
>> prominently on the wiki, and i shall look into creating a ‘DELPH-IN search’
>> master page, where users can submit queries to google such that they will
>> be automatically conjoined with ‘site:delph-in.net’ or maybe a
>> disjunction of more specific DELPH-IN addresses.
>>
>> for that to work transparently, i have created ‘discourse.delph-in.net’
>> as an alias (CNAME) for the UW address and would suggest that you configure
>> the server there to serve the forum under that address.  this way, we also
>> strengthen brand recognition and leave open the possibility of moving the
>> forum at some point, if need be, without having to change its address.
>>  does that sound like a feasible approach?
>>
>> best wishes, oe
>>
>>
>> [image: IMG_1268.jpg]
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 at 17:20 Olga Zamaraeva <olzama at uw.edu> wrote:
>>
> Dear all,
>>>
>>> > I believe this is the reason why Olga is talking about importing the
>>> mailing lists to new Delph-in Discourse forum.
>>>
>>> More because some people were worried about fragmenting the existing
>>> support. Fwiw, the new forum is not yet super visible from the outside
>>> (e.g. Google search), but that may change if we keep using it?
>>>
>>> I think however that one reason the googling results are inconsistent
>>> (sometimes one finds something that is linked to DELPH-IN resources but
>>> often times one doesn't) is that there are too few queries, and so Google
>>> is inclined to point the user to some other site where a similar topic is
>>> discussed? In that case, that will be the case with the forum also, though
>>> of course you can search within the forum.
>>>
>>> The difference with the mailing archives will then primarily be the
>>> salience of the working solution and overall usability, including the
>>> search experience and the formatting. I think the salience of the solution
>>> is important. For example, I wouldn't think it necessarily worthwhile to
>>> introduce a simple forum in addition to the existing resources, despite
>>> perhaps better formatting.
>>>
>>> Olga
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 2:50 AM Luis Morgado da Costa <
>>> luis.passos.morgado at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I believe it was the mailing lists, and not the Wiki, that people were
>>>> finding not being properly indexed by search engines.
>>>>
>>>> I did a quick test with a couple of known headers in some mail sent to
>>>> the developers' list and I couldn't get any meaningful results. E.g.: "Docu
>>>> of the MaxEnt .mem file structure?"
>>>>
>>>> But I do get mixed results... when searching "and typical
>>>> unknown-word-aware DELPH-IN grammars use constraints on generic", I did get
>>>> a result that linked to the developers' list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure the reason behind this inconsistency.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I believe this is the reason why Olga is talking about
>>>> importing the mailing lists to new Delph-in Discourse forum.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 6:33 PM Francis Bond <bond at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>> My apologies, I had thought they weren't but clearly they are.
>>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Stephan Oepen <oe at ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> thanks for the reminder, francis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i believe someone voiced the impression at the summit already that
>>>>>> the DELPH-IN wiki is not indexed by search engines.  i admit i never looked
>>>>>> into interactions with search engines specifically, but i would be very
>>>>>> surprised if there were any settings on the oslo DELPH-IN servers that
>>>>>> would scare off search engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> why do you believe we are not indexed?  i just did a quick test,
>>>>>> which seems to give the result one would expect (see below).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all best, oe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: IMG_1263.jpg]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 at 10:08 Francis Bond <bond at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for taking the initiative Olga!   I hope that this make
>>>>>>> information flow even better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think one of the problems with the wiki is that it does not seem to
>>>>>>> be indexed by, e.g. google.   Stephan: is there a setting you can
>>>>>>> change to get it indexed?   I think this would make the information
>>>>>>> there a lot more discoverable, ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Olga Zamaraeva <olzama at uw.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Dear developers,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In the last summit in Oslo, we discussed a possibility of having a
>>>>>>> Q&A forum
>>>>>>> > in stackexchange style.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Many people were enthusiastic, and, thanks to University of
>>>>>>> Washington
>>>>>>> > staff, we were able to set up a forum powered by Discourse:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > https://delphinqa.ling.washington.edu/
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I would like to invite each of you to create an account and try it
>>>>>>> out!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > The forum was created very recently, but at this point, there
>>>>>>> should not be
>>>>>>> > too many hiccups. We need to decide a few things soon (see below),
>>>>>>> so, we
>>>>>>> > want to involve the entire community at this point, even if we are
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> > testing the forum.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > A few notes, for those inclined to read them :).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 1) The primary purpose of this forum is to accumulate concrete
>>>>>>> solutions to
>>>>>>> > technical problems and make them easily discoverable. So the
>>>>>>> primary
>>>>>>> > scenario is for one to encounter an error message, and, instead of
>>>>>>> trying to
>>>>>>> > locate the answer somewhere on the wiki or in the email archives
>>>>>>> and ending
>>>>>>> > up emailing the list for the 100th time anyway, one would query
>>>>>>> the forum
>>>>>>> > (using e.g. the text of the error message). If their question was
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>> > answered, the assumption is they will be able to immediately find
>>>>>>> out what
>>>>>>> > the working solution is. This is, in my opinion, the most
>>>>>>> important feature
>>>>>>> > of stackexchange Q&A style, and one that other types of support
>>>>>>> lack.**
>>>>>>> > Moreover, the forum is also a fine platform for open-ended
>>>>>>> discussions, with
>>>>>>> > a nice addition of the upvote button which makes better, clearer
>>>>>>> posts more
>>>>>>> > salient in the thread.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > **(Some people oppose this style since, in their opinion, finding
>>>>>>> the right
>>>>>>> > solution "too easily" leads to lack of understanding of why the
>>>>>>> right answer
>>>>>>> > is the right answer. I agree  that there may be some truth to that
>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>> > also think that this ultimately depends on the user and how much
>>>>>>> and in what
>>>>>>> > style they are willing to learn; there is also a question of
>>>>>>> priorities:
>>>>>>> > sometimes what is needed the most is to fix the problem asap.)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 2) I will be the admin of the forum for now. This means I am the
>>>>>>> person to
>>>>>>> > whom you can complain about things if something is not working for
>>>>>>> you. It
>>>>>>> > also means I can do various things for you, such as create/merge
>>>>>>> categories
>>>>>>> > and so forth. If you would like to also be an admin or a
>>>>>>> moderator, let me
>>>>>>> > know. It will probably help to have more admins, especially in
>>>>>>> other time
>>>>>>> > zones.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 3) You do not need to monitor the forum or anything like that,
>>>>>>> unless you
>>>>>>> > would like to. Instead, you can subscribe to categories or tags,
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> > forum will email you when a new post is created in the category or
>>>>>>> with that
>>>>>>> > tag. You can choose whether you will be notified about the first
>>>>>>> post only
>>>>>>> > or each reply.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 4) Some developers expressed concern that we are thus fragmenting
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> > support platforms. I understand this concern and would like to
>>>>>>> address it by
>>>>>>> > both making an effort to import the email archives into the new
>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>> > (unless it proves too messy) and by pointing out that the
>>>>>>> email+wiki do not
>>>>>>> > and cannot really serve the purpose that I think this forum will
>>>>>>> serve. It
>>>>>>> > seems that the wiki, the email list, and the forum can very
>>>>>>> happily coexist,
>>>>>>> > just like python documentation and python-related sections of
>>>>>>> stackoverflow
>>>>>>> > (and presumably some people exchange emails about python when they
>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>> > discuss something in a manner they don't think the general public
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> > necessarily benefit from). Obviously, the wiki should be linked to
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>> > forum (and vice versa) and instructions on the wiki can be updated
>>>>>>> whenever
>>>>>>> > it makes sense to do so.***
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > ***(Note however that it can be rather impractical to try and
>>>>>>> incorporate
>>>>>>> > every single detail into the wiki, especially if the detail only
>>>>>>> makes sense
>>>>>>> > in the context of a concrete question. In fact, every time one adds
>>>>>>> > something to the wiki, one in a way is adding a new dimension to
>>>>>>> the space
>>>>>>> > in which people will be searching for solutions... without adding
>>>>>>> a starting
>>>>>>> > point for the search, necessarily.)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > 5) The forum is hosted by the University of Washington, so, there
>>>>>>> is no
>>>>>>> > danger of some external host interfering in our affairs. Discourse
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> > open-source software. It is also a very flexible system already,
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> > various plugins etc. We can customize it as we like.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If you would like to discuss any of this, we can do it here over
>>>>>>> email or on
>>>>>>> > the forum; there is already a topic there regarding the email
>>>>>>> archives:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> https://delphinqa.ling.washington.edu/t/importing-email-archives/28/5
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> > particular, that topic invites you to participate in a poll.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Thank you for considering,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Olga
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > P.S.: You will see that there are already some users and topics; I
>>>>>>> hadn't
>>>>>>> > advertised the forum here earlier because it was not yet working
>>>>>>> in a stable
>>>>>>> > fashion, but it should be now :). Note also that for now, this is
>>>>>>> all in the
>>>>>>> > testing stage. For example, if we do decide to import the mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> > archives, we may need to purge the existing content.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Francis Bond <http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/home/fcbond/>
>>>>>>> Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies
>>>>>>> Nanyang Technological University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Francis Bond <http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/home/fcbond/>
>>>>> Division of Linguistics and Multilingual Studies
>>>>> Nanyang Technological University
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Luis MORGADO DA COSTA (Mr) |* Ph.D. Student *| *Global Asia * |* Nanyang
>>>> Technological University
>>>>
>>>> Interdisciplinary Graduate School* |* 50 Nanyang Avenue
>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=50+Nanyang+Avenue&entry=gmail&source=g>,
>>>> S(639798)
>>>>
>>>> Tel: (65) 90541507  GMT+8h *|* Email: depa0003 at e.ntu.edu.sg
>>>> <XXXXX at e.ntu.edu.sg>* |* Web: http://igs.ntu.edu.sg/
>>>>
>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.delph-in.net/archives/developers/attachments/20171127/382229c3/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_1263.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 157547 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.delph-in.net/archives/developers/attachments/20171127/382229c3/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_1268.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 181023 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.delph-in.net/archives/developers/attachments/20171127/382229c3/attachment-0003.jpg>