<html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <p>So the reason why the optionality is an issue, if the semantics is the same when it's present or absent, is the desire to make sentences which are direct paraphrases of each other have the same MRS. Since that's not achievable in general, and since there often seem to be subtle distinctions between different phrasings, it shouldn't be an absolute principle. <br> </p> <p>If it's not optional, but the semantics can be entirely captured by the "although" part, there's an argument from simplicity to just have the "although". Again, that's not absolute, so if the "but" part can occur independently, I wouldn't think it's worth spending a lot of effort making the "but" disappear. On the other hand, if it really just occurs in that construction, I would feel inclined not to give it its own semantics.</p> <p>All best,<br> </p> <p>Ann<br> </p> <br> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/06/2017 20:55, Kristen Howell wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote cite="mid:CAJ_KJsmht3-ZdkuybR6aMj27P=1NkjVnqe3uHWCspxCcDG2s5g@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr">Thanks Ann and Emily. I think in many cases it is not optional to omit the adverb in the main clause. If "although" or "if" is present in the subordinate clause "but" or "if" is required in the main clause. Ann, I you are suggesting that optionality would be a reason for omitting "but", so if it's not optional, it does require its own EP? Am I interpreting that right? I'm inclined to think that if it's required, it's meaning can be captured by the EP for "although", but if it's optional, giving "but" its own EP allows us to capture the distinction between cases when it is present or absent.</div> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Ann Copestake <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:aac10@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">aac10@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <p>So the question is whether the "but" should be part of the semantics? I think the "although" part clearly has to be there.</p> <p>Reasoning along the same lines as English "if ... then", the "then" is optional and doesn't seem to convey additional meaning, so if the analogous situation held, there would be an argument for omitting the "but". <br> </p> <p>That said, I do see a contrast between:<br> </p> <p>If they win, I'll regret saying the manager was an idiot.</p> <p>If they win, THEN I'll regret saying the manager was an idiot. <br> </p> I can imagine that not having anything in the MRS corresponding to `then' might make accounting for that more difficult. I'm not suggesting a change in the ERG, just thinking it has some possible downsides and shouldn't necessarily be taken as determining what's done in other grammars in this respect.<br> <br> All best,<br> <br> Ann <div> <div class="h5"><br> <br> <br> <div class="m_-7103727554260378422moz-cite-prefix">On 19/06/2017 18:06, Emily M. Bender wrote:<br> </div> </div> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div> <div class="h5"> <div dir="ltr">Thank you, Ann. I think one of our questions is whether we should ever treat the adverbs <div>as contentful, and if so what that looks like. Mandarin gives us several examples of these,</div> <div>including pairs like"虽然 ... 但是" ('although ... but'; I'm not at the office today, so I can't</div> <div>look through my grammar books). It seems like rather than treating one (or both) as semantically</div> <div>empty, we might want something like:</div> <div><br> </div> <div>h1:although(h2,h3)</div> <div>h2:but(h4)<br> </div> <div>h5:main-clause-ltop</div> <div>h6:subord-clause-ltop</div> <div><br> </div> <div>h4 qeq h5, h3 qeq h6</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Does that sound sensible?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Emily</div> </div> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Ann Copestake <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:aac10@cl.cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">aac10@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Kristen,<br> <br> I can discuss the way the MRS might look, though not the details of how you get there.<br> <br> If there's a semantic relationship between the two clauses, then there needs to be some sort of two-place predicate taking the LTOP of each clause as an argument (usually via a qeq). If the two elements of the pair always go together, and there is a restricted range of options, this two-place predicate might be the only element of the semantics. If both elements are adverbial, the semantics might have to be associated with the construction rather than trying to do it via unusual semantics for an adverb.<br> <br> Looking at the ERG demo and delphin-viz, it seems that if_x_then is used for a range of situations, including ones without any lexical marking - e.g.,<br> <br> "Had I slept, it rained." (actually I find that ungrammatical, but never mind ... "Had I slept, it would have rained." is fine)<br> <br> In terms of the actual semantics, one could say there are two things going on with if_x_then - one is a causality relationship and the other is a hypotheticality marking.<br> <br> "I slept, so it rained."<br> <br> is just causality. So one could analyse<br> <br> if X then Y.<br> <br> as (schematically)<br> <br> cause(hyp(X),hyp(Y))<br> <br> and<br> <br> X so Y<br> <br> as<br> <br> cause(X,Y)<br> <br> I don't think this would be a good idea for English (too much decomposition, so it probably doesn't capture the nuances), but it might be more convenient for other languages.<br> <br> It is not the case that we can always capture the meaning directly for English. For instance:<br> <br> "I slept and, as a consequence, it rained."<br> <br> implies causality, but we won't capture that directly in the MRS. I'd say that what's going on is that `and' gives a two place relationship of the right form, but highly underspecified. "as a consequence" means it has to be interpreted causally.<br> <br> In context:<br> <br> "I slept and it rained."<br> <br> can do the same thing.<br> <br> To sum up, what I'm saying is that I think you'll always want some type of two-place clausal connective, but it might be underspecified to some extent with additional meaning conveyed via additional predications on individual clauses.<br> <br> All best,<br> <br> Ann<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <br> <br clear="all"> <div><br> </div> -- <br> <div class="m_-7103727554260378422gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr">Emily M. 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