<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Francis Bond <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bond@ieee.org" target="_blank">bond@ieee.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">On my phone so forgive the brevity, but in Paris we agreed that the docstring will start and end with three ". I think this is what pet now supports, Dan has a patch for the lkb, and I suspect I was meant to ask Woodley to add out to ACE.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry I missed out on all the fun this year :(<br></div><div><br></div><div> I see what you describe mentioned in the LTDB presentation: <a href="http://users.sussex.ac.uk/~johnca/summit-2018/ltdb-update.pdf">http://users.sussex.ac.uk/~johnca/summit-2018/ltdb-update.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>It seems the changes to PET are not yet merged in. Also I think Glenn would also like to know about the agreement.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Comments anywhere would be great.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks for pushing this forward Michael.</div></div><div class="gmail-HOEnZb"><div class="gmail-h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 12:34 Michael Wayne Goodman, <<a href="mailto:goodmami@uw.edu" target="_blank">goodmami@uw.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 19:24 Woodley Packard <<a href="mailto:sweaglesw@sweaglesw.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">sweaglesw@sweaglesw.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>2 cents worth...</div><div><br></div><div>1. I think the logical behavior for an addendum with a doc string is concatenation, not replacement. The doc string on the addendum should document what the addendum adds to the type, not the whole type.</div><div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Hmm, good point. I guess the addendum can only add constraints, so the old docstring wouldn't necessarily become invalid. I was comparing to method overrides in Python classes, but that's not a useful comparison.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>2. ACE (I believe) allows comments just about anywhere in TDL. I find this very useful when editing TDL, e.g. annotating changes on a fine grained level or disabling certain constraints temporarily without deleting them.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, it's definitely more useful to allow comments almost anywhere, and not really hard to parse, either.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Regards,</div><div>Woodley</div><div><br>On Jul 11, 2018, at 5:00 PM, Michael Wayne Goodman <<a href="mailto:goodmami@uw.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">goodmami@uw.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Thank you, Bernd, for the feedback. But I'm not having success parsing types with docstrings using PET. E.g., I changed sign-min in the ERG like this:</div><div><br></div><div> sign_min := *avm* &<br> "doc"<br> [ SYNSEM synsem_min,<br> KEY-ARG bool ].<br><br></div><div>But flop doesn't like it:<br></div><div><br></div><div> goodmami@tpy:~/grammars/erg$ flop english.tdl <br> reading `Version.lsp'... <br> converting `english.tdl' (ERG (1214)) into `english.grm' ...<br> loading `english.tdl'... including `fundamentals.tdl'... fundamentals.tdl:21:3: error: (syntax) - got ` [', expecting `.' at end of type definition</div><div> [...]</div><div><br></div><div>I get similar errors no matter where I put it (before :=, directly after :=, after ]). It's syntactically valid if I have ... *avm* & "doc" & ..., but then it has trouble unifying (as expected).</div><div><br></div><div>It does, however, seem to be happy having a comment there (both ; and #| styles) instead of a doc string.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm using flop version 0.99.14svn_cm from the LOGON distribution.<br></div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Bernd Kiefer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Bernd.Kiefer@dfki.de" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Bernd.Kiefer@dfki.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <tt>Concerning question 3, at least in TDL and PET there was no such restriction,<br> but that could make the definition of docstrings easier.<br> <br> Best,<br> <br> Bernd<br> </tt><div><div class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-h5"><br> <div class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935moz-cite-prefix">On 11.07.2018 03:01, Michael Wayne Goodman wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr"> <div>I attempted to define a BNF-like description of TDL syntax on the wiki: <a href="http://moin.delph-in.net/TdlRfc" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://moin.delph-in.net/<wbr>TdlRfc</a></div> <div>I tried to follow the partial BNF in the LKB source and often referred to the lisp code itself in order to fill out the rest of the description.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>My 3 questions above are concisely repeated at the bottom of the wiki along with some others.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I welcome corrections and discussion (here or on the wiki) from any TDL nerds or authorities (especially if you've written a TDL parser).<br> </div> </div> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Michael Wayne Goodman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:goodmami@uw.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">goodmami@uw.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir="ltr"> <div>Hi developers,</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I'm taking a closer look at the syntax of TDL files and the situation is a bit of a mess. Can anyone help me clarify some things? (I'll restrict myself to 3 questions for now)<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>The Copestake 2002 reference (Implementing TFS Grammars) has a BNF for TDL, but it's a bit out of date and, according to comments in the LKB source code, incorrect in parts. The LKB source comments are scattered, incomplete, inconsistent, and also a bit outdated. There is not much on the wiki. There is some discussion in the mailing list archives (much from before my time in DELPH-IN), but it's not clear how current those descriptions are.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Q1: Are supertypes special in a definition?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>The BNF (in the LKB source) says this:</div> <div><br> </div> <div> Type-def -> Type { Avm-def | Subtype-def} . | <br> Type { Avm-def | Subtype-def}.<br> </div> <div> Avm-def -> := Conjunction | Comment Conjunction<br> Conjunction -> Term { & Term } *<br> Term -> Type | Feature-term | Diff-list | List | Coreference<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>That makes it sound like I could do this:</div> <div><br> </div> <div> mytype := [ FEAT val ] & supertype.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>or even:</div> <div><br> </div> <div> mytype := <! diff list.. !> & #coref & supertype.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>But elsewhere it seems like a list of parents is special and appears before the rest of the conjunction. E.g., at read-tdl-avm-def of lingo/lkb/src/io-tdl/<wbr>tdltypeinput.lsp I see this alternate definition of Avm-def:<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> ;;; Avm-def -> := Parents Conjunction | Parents Comment Conjunction |<br> ;;; Parents | Parents Comment<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>It seems that both ACE and PET are fine with putting supertypes after the feature list (and some other variations). I'm fine with this, but I wonder what it means for docstrings (see Q3 below), which (I think) are supposed to appear after the list of parents and before the feature list.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Q2: Subtype-def is now just a variant of Avm-def, yes?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>The BNF still describes subtyping (with the :< operator) as only taking a single parent:</div> <div><br> </div> <div> Subtype-def -> :< type</div> <div><br> </div> <div>But I believe the consensus is that this is unnecessary (it's equivalent to using := with only a supertype), so :< is treated as equivalent to := (to avoid breaking backward compatibility). Is this interpretation used by all processors?</div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Q3: What's the final word with type comments / docstrings?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I find evidence of 3 proposed variants: (1) a block of ";" comments before a typename (LTDB-style); (2) a block of ";" comments within a type description; and (3) a "doc string" within a type description. Furthermore, there is a question as to whether comments or strings within a type go after the ":=" or after the list of supertypes. I think #| ... |# comments were not considered for this purpose.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>My guess is this:</div> <div><br> </div> <div>* LTDB-style comments (before the type identifier) are processed separately from TDL-parsing</div> <div>* type-internal comments can go anywhere but are discarded</div> <div>* type-internal doc strings must appear after the list of supertypes and are later available for inspection (they are included as a non-functional part of a type)</div> <div><br> </div> <div>ACE seems happy with my assumptions, although PET doesn't seem to like doc strings at all.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Thanks!<span class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br> </font></span></div> <span class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <div><br> </div> <div>-- <br> <div class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935m_-3591690003182791182gmail_signature"> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr">Michael Wayne Goodman</div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </font></span></div> </blockquote> </div> <br> <br clear="all"> <br> -- <br> <div class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935gmail_signature"> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div dir="ltr">Michael Wayne Goodman</div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> </div></div><span class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><pre class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935moz-signature" cols="72">-- ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>---------- Bernd Kiefer DFKI GmbH, Stuhlsatzenhausweg, D-66123 Saarbruecken <a class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail-m_-5022940462080984935moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kiefer@dfki.de" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">kiefer@dfki.de</a> +49-681/85775-5301 (phone) +49-681/85775-5338 (fax) ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>---------- Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz GmbH <a href="https://maps.google.com/?q=Trippstadter+Strasse+122,+D-67663+Kaiserslautern,+Germany&entry=gmail&source=g" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Trippstadter Strasse 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern, Germany</a> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vor- sitzender), Dr. Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313 </pre> </font></span></div> </blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail-m_-5944550606285763725m_810554446674267800m_2770478137485848316gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Michael Wayne Goodman</div></div></div></div></div></div> </div></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div> </blockquote></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Michael Wayne Goodman</div></div></div></div></div></div> </div></div>